Page Guidelines[]
Before making any significant changes to the Viewing_Order page, please be sure to discuss on this talk page first to ensure the changes reach a logical general consensus by other B5 Fans on Fandom.
Also note that this TV/Movie Viewing Order page should remain separate from the Chronology page. The Chronology page may be expanded to other books/comics/short story cannon. Cloaked2222 (talk) 02:19, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Historical Database[]
I have clarified some information on this page, but feel I ought to point out that a. The viewing order of episodes in the Historical Database has been authorised by Joe Straczynski himself. b. Anything that Joe commented on running orders, preceding the collaboration on Historical Database have been superceded by this later authorisation. Terry Jones, author of The Babylon 5 Historical Database B5historyman (talk) 00:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks B5historyman! For the Historical Database Chronological Order, should 4x22 "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" be watched after 4x21 or watched last after everything else? Cloaked2222 (talk) 12:40, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
- Like In the Beginning, Deconstruction covers so many time periods but the framing story is from the viewpoint of 1 million years in the future looking back B5historyman (talk)
I've noticed some comments made on the page that I feel need to be addressed. The comment regarding the Day of the Dead happening prior to Learning Curve and Strange Relations Joe has commented on this aspect "The notion of the audience having information that the characters don't is key to a lot of Greek tragedy, and that's kind of the mode I was going for here" In short just because we know something, doesn't mean the character does and the revelation for the character doesn't alter in that respect. The next comment about the swapping of Sic Transit Vir and A Late Delivery from Avalon. Babylon 5 is a port of call for all the races, so why should it not be the case that other alien species vessels be outside the station. It's happened previously and that wasn't dependant on the Babylon Treaty, rather the normal role of the station. Besides this was the decision to swap made by Joe and as such there's no interruption to any continuity in light of this. Regarding the placement of Thirdspace the opening narration clearly states it's the middle of 2261 and makes it clear that they have only just opened supply lines for the station in the wake of Clarke's blockade and is a reference to the events of Racing Mars where Ivanova has negotiated with the group of smugglers. B5historyman (talk) 13:41, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
- I've modified the language on the Commentary section to be more neutral - the intent of the page is just to present the different orders and explain the differences between them, not to arbitrate between them. There are counterarguments to your points which others would use to support different orders and that debate is probably best had away from this page.
- While I have you, do you have a working link for your "Chronological order of the B5 canon" document? - the link on the page doesn't work anymore...
- Also there are a few episode placements in the Historical Database I haven't been able to figure out the reasoning for - if/when you have the time it would be great if you could dig these out, then I can update the explanations on the page:
- Mind War and By Any Means Necessary - I'm assuming they're next to each other due to the budget discussion in Mind War, but what's the reason for putting them both between Sky and DeathWalker? (as opposed to between Survivors and Voice, or DeathWalker and Believers, for example)
- Eyes - I've assumed the reason for putting Eyes just before Quality is Delenn's absence from the station? Is that correct?
- Soul Mates - what's the reason for dating Soul Mates to May 2259? This is significant because it determines whether it goes before or after The Long Dark (dated to June). Also what's the reason for having Mates after A Race Through Dark Places? (they originally aired in the US the other way around...)
- Hunter, Prey - what's the reason for dating Hunter, Prey to July 2259 (and therefore before Knives in August)?
- There All the Honor Lies - similarly, what's the reason for dating Honor to mid-August 2259 (and therefore after Knives)?
- The Well of Forever - what's the reason for placing Well before Patterns of the Soul? I've assumed it's to avoid separating Patterns and Ruling, since they're both dated to June?
- The Path of Sorrows - what's the reason for placing Sorrows after the block of five gray/red uniform episodes, rather than before?
- Racing the Night - what's the reason for Racing going after The Needs of Earth? Or maybe the question is what's the reason for dating Needs to April 2267? (since Racing is dated to May)
What page is that? As far as I recall I've never linked the "Chronological order of the B5 canon" (either the Word document or the Excel spreadsheet) to any of the wiki pages?B5historyman (talk)
A Few Season 5 Typos[]
I'm watching B5 for the first time, and I'm following the Ideal Intended Order... which means I'm simply using the default table sort... I've not been looking at the episode names for awhile now, just the episode numbers column... which has been going fine until just now, when I unfortunately watched A Tragedy of Telepaths out of order... And I also now realize that I've watched Day of the Dead out of order as well, but it was more of a stand-alone episode, so I didn't notice at the time... the episodes are listed in what seem to be the right order by title, but their episode numbers are wrong. ... This seems like a really straightforward fix -- What do y'all think? -Anonymous
- Thanks for pointing that out, I've now corrected the episode number typos. I double checked all the information in the table, except the release dates. If someone else can double check the release dates, that would be great. Cloaked2222 (talk) 02:59, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
Character Development Order[]
Hi - any objection to me adding a new section for my Season One viewing order: https://b5season1order.wordpress.com By making around half a dozen changes to the original order, this ordering aims to make the Season One character development arcs more consistent and to give the season a pacing similar to the later ones. -Gs4291 19 July 2021
- Sounds like interesting work and I applaud your efforts to create a new viewing experience based on character development rather than focused on continuity or what JMS intended. However the Viewing Order page was created to align with JMS's intended/authorized viewing orders and objective continuity. Rather than adding your order to this page, I'd suggest sharing it on b5tv.com as a new unique way to re-watch the show. :) Cloaked2222 (talk) 07:32, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
- If I remember correctly, the proper viewing order is a bit tricky subject. I would rather not touch it without a lengthy discussion :). However, if You have any good ideas please contact either User:Radagast83 or User:B5historyman (Preferably both of them). Alternatively, You may create your own user sub-page (or a blog) with your proposed edits using the contents of this article as a template. Octurion (talk) 16:31, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
- Maybe I mischaracterised my viewing order: it starts with objective continuity as a foundation, but then builds on top of that by noting the changes in how characters interact with each other... gs4291 (talk) 25 August 2021
- All good, I went ahead and added it to the viewing order page. Its clear you've put a lot of work into this! =D Feel free to edit the description, I just created it based on your reddit posts. It would be great if you could write a blog post or something comparing your order to the Historical Database Chronological Order. Additionally, did you ever get a chance to address the rest of Avn3's comments on reddit here? If needed, I hope you continue developing your order as more fans chime in with suggestions that make sense to you. Regardless, thank you for your work! Cloaked2222 (talk) 17:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Awesome, thanks. I did actually start a draft blog post comparing my ordering to others a few months ago, but it got a bit complicated... maybe I'll have another attempt. As far as I can tell I think there's only one bit of reasoning where I differ from the Chronological Order (I don't think the prop in the background of Delenn's quarters in Grail is the chrysalis device, so I was free to put it earlier) - I think all the other differences come from the Chronological Order defaulting to the broadcast order in the absence of any other evidence, whereas I then started looking at changes in characters' behaviour instead...
- avn3's approach is really interesting - they look at the episodes strictly as 'historical' documents (whereas I give a bit more consideration to the TV viewing experience) - so for example they recently decided to put Sky Full of Stars immediately after Born to the Purple because when you freeze-frame you can see Garibaldi is reading the same newspaper in both episodes. Whereas I would think "okay well they just used the same prop and wouldn't expect the viewer to be able to see that...", avn3 takes that at face-value and infers that Garibaldi must have started reading the paper in Purple and is *still finishing reading the same paper* in Sky - therefore the two episodes must come straight after each other - which I think is a really fun idea... I may DM them on reddit to see if they'd be interested in adding to this page? Gs4291 (talk) 19:57, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- They reused the headlines for the edition of Universe Today in “And the Sky, Full of Stars”. Which was meant to be seen clearly, thus the recolouring of the headlines and their relevance because of the story chronologically taking place after The War Prayer.B5historyman (talk) 20:44, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Citations[]
I think this is a really great and useful page to have on the wiki - especially for the new viewers which HBO Max seems to be bringing to the show - but I think a few of the statements are a bit strong without any direct citations.
I've researched this topic quite a lot and while I can find comments directly from jms supporting many of the ordering changes in the Intended Order(s), I've not been able to find anything directly from jms on the suggested placements for In the Beginning and Deconstruction of Falling Stars relative to Sleeping in Light.
In fact this message instead points to a preference for Sleeping in Light to be viewed last, not Deconstruction. And this message indicates a preference for In the Beginning to be viewed first...
Are there citations for the placements of ItB and TDoFS in the "Ideal Intended Order"? In conversations elsewhere this b5tv post has been cited, but it doesn't actually give any evidence for the claim "this is how he [jms] wants it to be viewed"...
Without citations I think labelling this as an "Intended" (i.e. "intended by jms") Order is a bit strong and I think a few other parts would need to be toned down, for example:
- "The Ideal Intended Order is the order that J Michael Straczynski (JMS) originally intended the show to be viewed in"
- "JMS suggested watching it [ItB] 3rd to last"
- "JMS suggested watching it [Deconstruction] last"
- "JMS suggested watching it [SiL] 2nd to last"
Alternatively if there are citations then it would be really great to see them on the page. The ones given in the 'Ideal Chronological Order' section for example are a really good start - I think it would be even better to have a "Citations" section (for readers who are interested in the reasoning) with footnotes linking the episode positions in the table to the relevant citations - I'm happy to do the work on the page for this if the citations can be provided...
P.S. just to be clear, I'm talking only about viewing orders here, not chronological orders - I'm familiar with the history and source of the chronological order and am not disputing that
Gs4291 (talk) 11:07, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- I agree citations for the three decision points (In The Beginning, The Deconstruction of Falling Stars, and Sleeping in Light) would be nice. Different fans seem to have different opinions on these three, and JMS's preferences may have varied in the past. There didn't seem to be a perfect answer, hence the Decisions Points section provides options. Per your input, I've edited the Decision Points section on the viewing order page.
- Note that the orders posted by blackcoatcowboy and Alkibiades410 both place Sleeping 2nd to last and Deconstruction last. Alkibiades410 describes his thoughts on this. I personally wouldn't say that post from JMS is stating his viewing order preference. Deconstruction does jump ahead 1 million years into the future. Generally fans either watch Deconstruction and Sleeping in their original broadcast orders, or they wait to watch Deconstruction until after Sleeping. Both options are included in the Decision Points. Cloaked2222 (talk) 21:06, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
So I wanted citations...? How about 81 of them?[]
Okay so after (1) my suggestion of adding citations, and (2) Cloaked2222's suggestion of a comparison between my order and the chronological order (and (3) me wanting to try out some wikia editing) over the last couple of weeks the below page has come into being:
https://sandbox.fandom.com/wiki/Viewing_Order
I took the sortable table idea from the original page but with the addition of the citations/references I had to break it into sections to make it a bit more digestible. I made the numbering system a bit more complicated subtle to try and highlight the places where the different orders agree (which is a lot more than I previously thought) - to compensate, I wanted to add a column of static row numbers (something like this template) but that's beyond what I've been able to figure out. Having made the page, I'm not quite sure what to do with it(!) - it would be great if the content could be integrated into this wiki, but I'm happy to take a steer from Cloaked2222 on how to manage that... Gs4291 (talk) 18:41, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
- Excellent, simply excellent! =D I've taken a first pass at incorporating this content into the main Viewing_Order page. More work is needed, but I'll leave that to yourself or others. Notably, a source is needed for the "Focused Story Order". Cloaked2222 (talk) 19:15, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Rearrangement[]
Hi - I made an attempt to rearrange the page a bit, a draft is here: https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Draft:Viewing_Order
I re-ordered the orders(!) more chronologically - so the page details how the picture has developed over time, from the original broadcast through to the more recent efforts. I also grouped together a few of the orders into their own sections, to avoid the table of contents getting too overcrowded. I think I included everything from the original page - although the "Intended Order" isn't detailed explicitly, it is described within the "Hybrid" section. I cut the big table as I couldn't find a good place for it - I think it would need some thought as to which of the (many) orders it should cover...
I'm interested to here any feedback (from user:Cloaked2222 or anyone else) and thoughts on whether the original page would benefit from some or all of this rearrangement. Thanks Gs4291 (talk) 19:00, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- Good stuff! First I moved the Ideal Intended Order and the Ideal Chronological Order to their own page here. Then I updated your draft page with a some changes. Finally I copied the draft page content over to the main Viewing Order page. Note that I tried to keep the intro simple, but feel free to edit as needed. I added columns for the Original Broadcast Order and the Lurkers Guide Order to the main viewing order chart, but I'm hoping someone else can contribute and populate the numbers. :) For the Crusade comparison chart, I'd suggest changing the codes to "x-B" "x-G" "x-A" "x-X" and then making each number go from 1 to 13. As is, its not very sortable and its quite hard to read. Cloaked2222 (talk) 00:12, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for incorporating the changes - I've gone in and added the numbers on the main table. I removed the Production numbering as (although it's interesting) I'm not sure if it contributes to the viewing order comparison.
- Thanks. You still can't sort the crusade chart though. It might be best to just remove A/B/C/X all together and just leave the numbers so it can be sorted. The uniform colors are already indicated in the first column's background color. Anyways, great work! Cloaked2222 (talk) 04:19, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Numbering of episodes[]
Please keep the numbering by season and episode in the table. Someone removed it while I was watching the show and 1 to 130 does not mean anything to anyone. People use 1x01 to 5x22. - 142.234.80.87 21:24, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
In The Beginning first[]
If i could watch the complete franchise again I would start watching "In the Beginning". It sets up all the main characters of the series without disclosing too much.